I've been persuaded to give an OSTIV talk about motorglider safety issues,
in particular propulsion system failures. I'm going to discuss
common failures, the systemic reasons this stuff has happened and
WILL CONTINUE to happen, and some ideas for systemic improvements.

I'm looking for pictures and/or documentation of failures, for example:
- failed position switches (ie limit switches, prop position sensor)
- failed fuel systems (improper hoses, routing, leak sources, etc)
- failed structural components (cracked exhaust, mounts, pylons, etc)
- failed drive belts
- failed electrical connectors
- failed motor controller
- failed electronics
and anything else you might happen to have.

Ideally a good photo, make and model, approximate date, brief description.
Please email to me offline.

Thanks in advance for the help!
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Probably time to redo this study, but situation isn't that much changed:
http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_2008_Survey_results_engines_in_sailplanes.p df

Dave Nadler wrote on 12/7/2019 9:27 AM:
> I've been persuaded to give an OSTIV talk about motorglider safety issues,
> in particular propulsion system failures. I'm going to discuss
> common failures, the systemic reasons this stuff has happened and
> WILL CONTINUE to happen, and some ideas for systemic improvements.
>
> I'm looking for pictures and/or documentation of failures, for example:
> - failed position switches (ie limit switches, prop position sensor)
> - failed fuel systems (improper hoses, routing, leak sources, etc)
> - failed structural components (cracked exhaust, mounts, pylons, etc)
> - failed drive belts
> - failed electrical connectors
> - failed motor controller
> - failed electronics
> and anything else you might happen to have.
>
> Ideally a good photo, make and model, approximate date, brief description.
> Please email to me offline.
>
> Thanks in advance for the help!
> Best Regards, Dave
>
> PS: Probably time to redo this study, but situation isn't that much changed:
> http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_2008_Survey_results_engines_in_sailplanes.p df

Things have changed, big time: used to be only gasoline engines, now we have
electric motors, so add to the list:

- failed propulsion motor
- failed motor batteries
- failed motor battery chargers
- failed cooling fans


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Thanks Eric - Can you forward this on to ASA and provide some photos?

>
http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_2008_Survey_results_engines_in_sailplanes.p df


Lacking experience sustainer, I need some help interpreting Section 2.2.1 'Usage frequency'.

Is the report saying that pilots use the sustainer to avoid outlandings on 69-70% of flights?

Does anyone have links to previous discussions of this report in English?

Failed pilots? Dave, you don’t want me to send you my photo?

Later on it explains that most of these are “test runs� early in the flight while local to the home airfield. I suspect this practice is more common in Europe than in the states, although I haven’t flown around sustainer sailplanes enough to know for sure.

Dave Nadler wrote on 12/7/2019 1:39 PM:
> Thanks Eric - Can you forward this on to ASA and provide some photos?
>
Yes, I'll ask the members to help out.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

No one has mentioned jets? They can be unreliable to get started, and
there's been uncontained blade failures. Even had the engine depart the
A/C.



On 12/7/19 2:39 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> Thanks Eric - Can you forward this on to ASA and provide some photos?
>

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 11:46:36 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
> No one has mentioned jets? They can be unreliable to get started, and
> there's been uncontained blade failures. Even had the engine depart the
> A/C.

Interesting, I've heard of numerous failures to start and failure to climb,
but not uncontained blade failures or engine departing AC...

HERE <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Puia_yQxir8&feature=youtu.be> is
an example of a jet sustainer failure to start.Â* Good glide path
control, but I thought he may have waited a bit longer than required
before dumping his ballast.

On 12/8/2019 9:59 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 11:46:36 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
>> No one has mentioned jets? They can be unreliable to get started, and
>> there's been uncontained blade failures. Even had the engine depart the
>> A/C.
> Interesting, I've heard of numerous failures to start and failure to climb,
> but not uncontained blade failures or engine departing AC...

--
Dan, 5J

I remember an engine that would not extend caused by a spark plug wire stuck to the muffler! Apparently the engine had been retracted without a sufficient cooling period and spark plug wire came to rest on the muffler and melted the insulation that turned to glue when it cooled down! Oddball malfunction for sure. Also heard rumors about pilots forgetting to add oil to the fuel in 2 stroke engines and another guy that accidentally added oil twice to the same batch of fuel. Then there was the pilot that leaned out his engine for peak power and melted a cylinder on takeoff. Seems to me that electric motors are the best way forward, but self launching with a motor in the nose gives very little prop clearance. The JETA looks promising.
JJ

Dan Marotta wrote on 12/8/2019 9:38 AM:
> HERE <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Puia_yQxir8&feature=youtu.be> is an example
> of a jet sustainer failure to start.* Good glide path control, but I thought he
> may have waited a bit longer than required before dumping his ballast.
>
> On 12/8/2019 9:59 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 11:46:36 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
>>> No one has mentioned jets? They can be unreliable to get started, and
>>> there's been uncontained blade failures. Even had the engine depart the
>>> A/C.
>> Interesting, I've heard of numerous failures to start and failure to climb,
>> but not uncontained blade failures or engine departing AC...

I'm pretty sure that qualifies as a self-launcher!


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Motor in a sailplane = a complicated abomination, ......

An efficient light power plane utilizing sailplane aerodynamics = beautiful engineering.,,,,

wrote on 12/8/2019 10:01 AM:
> Motor in a sailplane = a complicated abomination, ......
>
> An efficient light power plane utilizing sailplane aerodynamics = beautiful engineering.,,,,

Look at an FES sailplane - simple. Much simpler than a towplane, and much easier
to schedule when you need a launch. I was part owner of a towplane for years, and
it caused me more grief each year than the self-launcher I now own. And then there
are the avoided retrieves - simple and priceless!

Are we really having this conversation after all these years, with 80% of the
gliders going out the factory door with an engine?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

At 18:47 08 December 2019, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Some where there is a photo of a propellor blade sticking out of a
duo discus wing.It was part of the AD sent out after a hub failure left
the blades coming off.



wrote on 12/8/2019 10:01 AM:
>> Motor in a sailplane = a complicated abomination, ......
>>
>> An efficient light power plane utilizing sailplane aerodynamics =
>beautiful engineering.,,,,
>
>Look at an FES sailplane - simple. Much simpler than a towplane,
and much
>easier
>to schedule when you need a launch. I was part owner of a
towplane for
>years, and
>it caused me more grief each year than the self-launcher I now
own. And
>then there
>are the avoided retrieves - simple and priceless!
>
>Are we really having this conversation after all these years, with
80% of
>the
>gliders going out the factory door with an engine?
>
>--
>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email
>me)
>- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>
>https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-
the-guide-1
>

\J. May:
> Some where there is a photo of a propellor blade sticking out of a
> duo discus wing.It was part of the AD sent out after a hub failure left
> the blades coming off.

I think this may be what you're referring to?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5714f22aed915d1601000000/Schempp-Hirth_Duo_Discus_T_G-SAXT_05-16.pdf

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 1:47:26 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Are we really having this conversation after all these years,
> with 80% of the gliders going out the factory door with an engine?

That is PRECISELY why we're having this conversation.
Looking forward to your contributions,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Old, but still relevant (I need to see if Jean Marie has an updated version):
http://www.streckenflug.at/download/motorprobleme.pdf

At 19:51 08 December 2019, Duster wrote:
>
>
>\J. May:
>> Some where there is a photo of a propellor blade sticking out of a
>> duo discus wing.It was part of the AD sent out after a hub failure
left
>> the blades coming off.
>
>I think this may be what you're referring to?
>https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5714f22aed915d16
01000000/Schempp-Hirth_Duo_Discus_T_G-SAXT_05-16.pdf
>

Thats the incident butI have see more photos one was of a blade
impacted with a wing still I insintue

Not part of the accident report, but here are some additional photos of the hub failure accident mentioned. Kudos to the BGA and their mag for better coverage of such events and remedies. I believe this is the same one regarding the G-SAXT Duo?

http://glidingtauranga.co.nz/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/L2.-Duo-Discus-Engine-DI.pdf

At 20:06 08 December 2019, Dave Nadler wrote:
>On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 1:47:26 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell
wrote:
>> Are we really having this conversation after all these years,
>> with 80% of the gliders going out the factory door with an
engine?
>
>That is PRECISELY why we're having this conversation.
>Looking forward to your contributions,
>Best Regards, Dave
>
>PS: Old, but still relevant (I need to see if Jean Marie has an
updated
>version):
>http://www.streckenflug.at/download/motorprobleme.pdf
>

Prop blade punctured fuselage, dented fuel tank and restricted
aileron movement. It nearly took out the brakes as well. The prop
had flown 38 hours

Missing blade

The flight manual says to check for cracks in the hub every day. This
is what a very badly cracked hub looks like.

There are photos I will try to put a link in.

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 2:15:07 PM UTC-5, Jonathon May wrote:
> At 18:47 08 December 2019, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Some where there is a photo of a propellor blade sticking out of a
> duo discus wing.It was part of the AD sent out after a hub failure left
> the blades coming off.

IIRC, more recent is the blade sticking out of a DG-1000 wing.
Different style hub (conventional 2-blade prop).
Anyone have that picture?

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:01:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Motor in a sailplane = a complicated abomination, ......
>
> An efficient light power plane utilizing sailplane aerodynamics = beautiful engineering.,,,,

As the Italians put it: Donna e motore: amore e dolore...

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:38:04 PM UTC-6, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:01:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > Motor in a sailplane = a complicated abomination, ......
> >
> > An efficient light power plane utilizing sailplane aerodynamics = beautiful engineering.,,,,
>
> As the Italians put it: Donna e motore: amore e dolore...

Well, for one, my spouse has never failed me (and she's prettier than any Rotax, Solo or FES engine).

Well, for one, my spouse has never failed me (and she's prettier than any Rotax, Solo or FES engine).

I hear ya there Duster, and in response to someones post earlier, I never denegrated the UTILITY of a motor glider, just said they are an abomination lol. I get the same utility without tying up 100,000k in finances. As for a tow plane, not needed, my truck and 1800 ft of spectra do just fine but thats if your not afraid to thermal below 1,000ft. And it costs peanuts.

He must have been a glider pilot or at least, he showed great aptitude and someone should have given him his glider-wings!

Uli
'AS'

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:38:56 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> HERE
> is an example of a jet sustainer failure to start.Â* Good glide path
> control, but I thought he may have waited a bit longer than required
> before dumping his ballast.
>
>
>
>
> On 12/8/2019 9:59 AM, Dave Nadler
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 11:46:36 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
>
>
> No one has mentioned jets? They can be unreliable to get started, and
> there's been uncontained blade failures. Even had the engine depart the
> A/C.
>
>
> Interesting, I've heard of numerous failures to start and failure to climb,
> but not uncontained blade failures or engine departing AC...
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

wrote on 12/8/2019 9:47 AM:
> I remember an engine that would not extend caused by a spark plug wire stuck to the muffler! Apparently the engine had been retracted without a sufficient cooling period and spark plug wire came to rest on the muffler and melted the insulation that turned to glue when it cooled down! Oddball malfunction for sure. Also heard rumors about pilots forgetting to add oil to the fuel in 2 stroke engines and another guy that accidentally added oil twice to the same batch of fuel. Then there was the pilot that leaned out his engine for peak power and melted a cylinder on takeoff. Seems to me that electric motors are the best way forward, but self launching with a motor in the nose gives very little prop clearance. The JETA looks promising.

The 15M GP15 Jeta does look good; the 13.5 M category has the GP14, Silent
Electro (an FES) and miniLAK-FES, all appearing capable of good XC flying; and if
you gotta have 18M, the new AS34 has deliveries available for next spring,
according to the Schleicher dealer. The GP and AS gliders are "motor on a stick",
so no problems with prop clearance.

None of these has the powered range of a gasoline powered self-launcher, but 25
years of flying my ASH26E tells me the 100km powered range most have is enough for
all but a small percentage of my self-retrieves, and the 100km range would greatly
shorten the retrieve by trailer or aerotow.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 9:27:51 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> I've been persuaded to give an OSTIV talk about motorglider safety issues,
> in particular propulsion system failures. I'm going to discuss
> common failures, the systemic reasons this stuff has happened and
> WILL CONTINUE to happen, and some ideas for systemic improvements.
>
> I'm looking for pictures and/or documentation of failures, for example:
> - failed position switches (ie limit switches, prop position sensor)
> - failed fuel systems (improper hoses, routing, leak sources, etc)
> - failed structural components (cracked exhaust, mounts, pylons, etc)
> - failed drive belts
> - failed electrical connectors
> - failed motor controller
> - failed electronics
> and anything else you might happen to have.
>
> Ideally a good photo, make and model, approximate date, brief description..
> Please email to me offline.
>
> Thanks in advance for the help!
> Best Regards, Dave
>
> PS: Probably time to redo this study, but situation isn't that much changed:
> http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_2008_Survey_results_engines_in_sailplanes.p df

If this talk is to be about safety issues, it shouldn't be concerned with maintenance issues. Safety issues are things that affect the outcome of a flight - if a maintenance issue occurs that prevents the flight from occurring, there is no safety issue.

An in-flight fire is definitely a safety issue; a dead battery that keeps you from starting your engine is not. I have experienced both; examples include:

Maintenance:
Hydrolocking due to unknown contamination in the fuel system.
Flywheel screws that jam engine operation because of insufficient locking adhesive.
Drive belt that fails during engine starting.
Engine controller failure due to unknown causes.

Flight safety:
Mast mounting bolt failure due to unknown causes resulting in loss of all power (propulsion failure followed by uneventful landing).
Fuel system fire due to unknown causes (propulsion failure followed by uneventful landing).
Decompression valve plug working out due to missing washer (propulsion failure followed by uneventful landing).

The truth is that very few true flight safety issues have occurred, perhaps on a par with towplane engine failures. The more likely issue is engine failure to start with a bad outlanding outcome. And, I suspect these are dwarfed by all of the fatal stall/spins trying to do a low save (one occurred recently).

Tom

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 9:27:51 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> I've been persuaded to give an OSTIV talk about motorglider safety issues,
> in particular propulsion system failures. I'm going to discuss
> common failures, the systemic reasons this stuff has happened and
> WILL CONTINUE to happen, and some ideas for systemic improvements.
>
> I'm looking for pictures and/or documentation of failures, for example:
> - failed position switches (ie limit switches, prop position sensor)
> - failed fuel systems (improper hoses, routing, leak sources, etc)
> - failed structural components (cracked exhaust, mounts, pylons, etc)
> - failed drive belts
> - failed electrical connectors
> - failed motor controller
> - failed electronics
> and anything else you might happen to have.
>
> Ideally a good photo, make and model, approximate date, brief description..
> Please email to me offline.
>
> Thanks in advance for the help!
> Best Regards, Dave
>
> PS: Probably time to redo this study, but situation isn't that much changed:
> http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_2008_Survey_results_engines_in_sailplanes.p df

In the late 80's a DG 400 taking off from El Tiro lost his prop after the bolts sheared off. It was concluded the wooden prop had shrunk and the bolts were free to move. It happened about 1000AGL, those of us who were watching heard the engine rev really high then a shut down followed by call on the radio for a emergency landing. The prop walked down the wing hitting it three times, the last hit near the end went through the top and bottoms skins. All was OK on landing.

DR Jack's ASW 26e had a fire in the engine bay that nearly burnt the tall boom off. A belt came apart and cut a fuel line. He stayed with the plane till landing. As I was in the shop, the repair people were amazed it did not break off, the composited was completely burned through in most places.

My worse events in my DG 800b were a failure of the uphaul motor so I could not retract the engine and second was a contamination in the fuel line after they were replaced. Debris kept the needle valve open so the engine was flooding on a air restart. Using full throttle it would run, preventing a landout

BG

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 2:45:07 PM UTC-8, BG wrote:
> On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 9:27:51 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > I've been persuaded to give an OSTIV talk about motorglider safety issues,
> > in particular propulsion system failures. I'm going to discuss
> > common failures, the systemic reasons this stuff has happened and
> > WILL CONTINUE to happen, and some ideas for systemic improvements.
> >
> > I'm looking for pictures and/or documentation of failures, for example:
> > - failed position switches (ie limit switches, prop position sensor)
> > - failed fuel systems (improper hoses, routing, leak sources, etc)
> > - failed structural components (cracked exhaust, mounts, pylons, etc)
> > - failed drive belts
> > - failed electrical connectors
> > - failed motor controller
> > - failed electronics
> > and anything else you might happen to have.
> >
> > Ideally a good photo, make and model, approximate date, brief description.
> > Please email to me offline.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for the help!
> > Best Regards, Dave
> >
> > PS: Probably time to redo this study, but situation isn't that much changed:
> > http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_2008_Survey_results_engines_in_sailplanes.p df
>
> In the late 80's a DG 400 taking off from El Tiro lost his prop after the bolts sheared off. It was concluded the wooden prop had shrunk and the bolts were free to move. It happened about 1000AGL, those of us who were watching heard the engine rev really high then a shut down followed by call on the radio for a emergency landing. The prop walked down the wing hitting it three times, the last hit near the end went through the top and bottoms skins. All was OK on landing.
>
> DR Jack's ASW 26e had a fire in the engine bay that nearly burnt the tall boom off. A belt came apart and cut a fuel line. He stayed with the plane till landing. As I was in the shop, the repair people were amazed it did not break off, the composited was completely burned through in most places..
>
> My worse events in my DG 800b were a failure of the uphaul motor so I could not retract the engine and second was a contamination in the fuel line after they were replaced. Debris kept the needle valve open so the engine was flooding on a air restart. Using full throttle it would run, preventing a landout
>
> BG

Dr Jack's in-flight fire was the scariest incident I have heard of. Does anyone know if he shut off fuel after the start of the fire?

Tom

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 11:48:33 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 2:45:07 PM UTC-8, BG wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 9:27:51 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > > I've been persuaded to give an OSTIV talk about motorglider safety issues,
> > > in particular propulsion system failures. I'm going to discuss
> > > common failures, the systemic reasons this stuff has happened and
> > > WILL CONTINUE to happen, and some ideas for systemic improvements.
> > >
> > > I'm looking for pictures and/or documentation of failures, for example:
> > > - failed position switches (ie limit switches, prop position sensor)
> > > - failed fuel systems (improper hoses, routing, leak sources, etc)
> > > - failed structural components (cracked exhaust, mounts, pylons, etc)
> > > - failed drive belts
> > > - failed electrical connectors
> > > - failed motor controller
> > > - failed electronics
> > > and anything else you might happen to have.
> > >
> > > Ideally a good photo, make and model, approximate date, brief description.
> > > Please email to me offline.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for the help!
> > > Best Regards, Dave
> > >
> > > PS: Probably time to redo this study, but situation isn't that much changed:
> > > http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_2008_Survey_results_engines_in_sailplanes.p df
> >
> > In the late 80's a DG 400 taking off from El Tiro lost his prop after the bolts sheared off. It was concluded the wooden prop had shrunk and the bolts were free to move. It happened about 1000AGL, those of us who were watching heard the engine rev really high then a shut down followed by call on the radio for a emergency landing. The prop walked down the wing hitting it three times, the last hit near the end went through the top and bottoms skins. All was OK on landing.
> >
> > DR Jack's ASW 26e had a fire in the engine bay that nearly burnt the tall boom off. A belt came apart and cut a fuel line. He stayed with the plane till landing. As I was in the shop, the repair people were amazed it did not break off, the composited was completely burned through in most places.
> >
> > My worse events in my DG 800b were a failure of the uphaul motor so I could not retract the engine and second was a contamination in the fuel line after they were replaced. Debris kept the needle valve open so the engine was flooding on a air restart. Using full throttle it would run, preventing a landout
> >
> > BG
>
> Dr Jack's in-flight fire was the scariest incident I have heard of. Does anyone know if he shut off fuel after the start of the fire?
>
> Tom

Haven't there been 3-4 Stemme in-flight fires world wide?

Frank

....And this is why I already have a fire plan for my Stemme: ENGINE FIRE
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/gu2yzjylio6wajg/PastedGraphic-1.tiff?dl=0>

On 12/11/2019 9:37 AM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 11:48:33 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>> On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 2:45:07 PM UTC-8, BG wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 9:27:51 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
>>>> I've been persuaded to give an OSTIV talk about motorglider safety issues,
>>>> in particular propulsion system failures. I'm going to discuss
>>>> common failures, the systemic reasons this stuff has happened and
>>>> WILL CONTINUE to happen, and some ideas for systemic improvements.
>>>>
>>>> I'm looking for pictures and/or documentation of failures, for example:
>>>> - failed position switches (ie limit switches, prop position sensor)
>>>> - failed fuel systems (improper hoses, routing, leak sources, etc)
>>>> - failed structural components (cracked exhaust, mounts, pylons, etc)
>>>> - failed drive belts
>>>> - failed electrical connectors
>>>> - failed motor controller
>>>> - failed electronics
>>>> and anything else you might happen to have.
>>>>
>>>> Ideally a good photo, make and model, approximate date, brief description.
>>>> Please email to me offline.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance for the help!
>>>> Best Regards, Dave
>>>>
>>>> PS: Probably time to redo this study, but situation isn't that much changed:
>>>> http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_2008_Survey_results_engines_in_sailplanes.p df
>>> In the late 80's a DG 400 taking off from El Tiro lost his prop after the bolts sheared off. It was concluded the wooden prop had shrunk and the bolts were free to move. It happened about 1000AGL, those of us who were watching heard the engine rev really high then a shut down followed by call on the radio for a emergency landing. The prop walked down the wing hitting it three times, the last hit near the end went through the top and bottoms skins. All was OK on landing.
>>>
>>> DR Jack's ASW 26e had a fire in the engine bay that nearly burnt the tall boom off. A belt came apart and cut a fuel line. He stayed with the plane till landing. As I was in the shop, the repair people were amazed it did not break off, the composited was completely burned through in most places.
>>>
>>> My worse events in my DG 800b were a failure of the uphaul motor so I could not retract the engine and second was a contamination in the fuel line after they were replaced. Debris kept the needle valve open so the engine was flooding on a air restart. Using full throttle it would run, preventing a landout
>>>
>>> BG
>> Dr Jack's in-flight fire was the scariest incident I have heard of. Does anyone know if he shut off fuel after the start of the fire?
>>
>> Tom
> Haven't there been 3-4 Stemme in-flight fires world wide?
>
> Frank

--
Dan, 5J

BG wrote on 12/9/2019 2:45 PM:
> DR Jack's ASW 26e had a fire in the engine bay that nearly burnt the tall boom off. A belt came apart and cut a fuel line. He stayed with the plane till landing. As I was in the shop, the repair people were amazed it did not break off, the composited was completely burned through in most places.

Do you recall how much of the ASH 26 E was burned while it was in the air, and how
much was burned after landing? I don't recall Dr. Jack expressing concern about
inflight structural failure at the time, but it's been 11 years, and I might not
be remembering accurately.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Dan Marotta wrote on 12/11/2019 9:02 AM:
> ...And this is why I already have a fire plan for my Stemme: ENGINE FIRE
> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gu2yzjylio6wajg/PastedGraphic-1.tiff?dl=0>

What is the plan?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

After Rex Mayes and I came up with a nice fire extinguisher system for ASH26E a decade ago, denial of the need for such a system seemed quite popular.
How many similar systems have been installed by owners?
How many manufaturers offer options like this?
Sorry, don't have a photo of the two emitters in the engine compartment.
Jim

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nidqq8s4scwsadu/AADHDTyYsl1yy58HKIQg2dCta?dl=0

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 12:24:13 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote on 12/11/2019 9:02 AM:
> > ...And this is why I already have a fire plan for my Stemme: ENGINE FIRE
> > <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gu2yzjylio6wajg/PastedGraphic-1.tiff?dl=0>
>
> What is the plan?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

1. Evacuate
2. Run upwind
3. Take photos

If below bailout altitude, land straight ahead.Â* If I have sufficient
altitude to jump, I'll jump and let the insurance company have it.

As I understand it, the pilot of the pictured glider was on takeoff when
he got the fire warning, flew an abbreviated pattern, landed, and barely
got out.

On 12/11/2019 10:24 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote on 12/11/2019 9:02 AM:
>> ...And this is why I already have a fire plan for my Stemme: ENGINE
>> FIRE
>> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gu2yzjylio6wajg/PastedGraphic-1.tiff?dl=0>
>
> What is the plan?
>

--
Dan, 5J

Several of the Stemme owners are looking at this product:
https://proteng.com/pictures/

On 12/11/2019 10:27 AM, JS wrote:
> After Rex Mayes and I came up with a nice fire extinguisher system for ASH26E a decade ago, denial of the need for such a system seemed quite popular.
> How many similar systems have been installed by owners?
> How many manufaturers offer options like this?
> Sorry, don't have a photo of the two emitters in the engine compartment.
> Jim
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nidqq8s4scwsadu/AADHDTyYsl1yy58HKIQg2dCta?dl=0

--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 3:16:32 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Several of the Stemme owners are looking at this product:
> https://proteng.com/pictures/

That looks like a good solution for a closed space, but will it have a meaningful effect in an area with air forced through at high volume? Would you have a separate warning so you'd know to close the Stemme vents? Probably wouldn't work in an MG with an open engine bay (doors that don't close)?

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 11:11:01 AM UTC-8, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 12:24:13 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Dan Marotta wrote on 12/11/2019 9:02 AM:
> > > ...And this is why I already have a fire plan for my Stemme: ENGINE FIRE
> > > <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gu2yzjylio6wajg/PastedGraphic-1.tiff?dl=0>
> >
> > What is the plan?
> >
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> 1. Evacuate
> 2. Run upwind
> 3. Take photos

Dan you need to get with the times. 1) Take selfie; 2) Evacuate; 3) Take selfie; 4) Run upwind while taking self video; 5) take videos, selfies, post to social media...then check for survivors, contact appropriate arthurites.

Social media?Â* What's that?

On 12/11/2019 4:13 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 11:11:01 AM UTC-8, Dan Daly wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 12:24:13 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> Dan Marotta wrote on 12/11/2019 9:02 AM:
>>>> ...And this is why I already have a fire plan for my Stemme: ENGINE FIRE
>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gu2yzjylio6wajg/PastedGraphic-1.tiff?dl=0>
>>> What is the plan?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>> 1. Evacuate
>> 2. Run upwind
>> 3. Take photos
> Dan you need to get with the times. 1) Take selfie; 2) Evacuate; 3) Take selfie; 4) Run upwind while taking self video; 5) take videos, selfies, post to social media...then check for survivors, contact appropriate arthurites.

--
Dan, 5J

Tests have shown that the air flow through the cowling of an airplane is
much slower than the dispersion velocity of this product.Â* I don't have
data for the Stemme, but I'd imagine it's similar.

You can't close the vents in a Stemme while the engine is running
without incurring a bill in excess of $35-40 thousand dollars.

The Stemme has a fire warning system which alarms before these tubes
release their suppressant thereby allowing the pilot to close the fuel
valve and shut down the engine.

The cost of this system is less than that of an iPhone.

I doubt this system would work in a glider with an open engine bay.

On 12/11/2019 3:38 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 3:16:32 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Several of the Stemme owners are looking at this product:
>> https://proteng.com/pictures/
> That looks like a good solution for a closed space, but will it have a meaningful effect in an area with air forced through at high volume? Would you have a separate warning so you'd know to close the Stemme vents? Probably wouldn't work in an MG with an open engine bay (doors that don't close)?

--
Dan, 5J

On 12/8/19 9:59 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 11:46:36 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
>> No one has mentioned jets? They can be unreliable to get started, and
>> there's been uncontained blade failures. Even had the engine depart the
>> A/C.
>
> Interesting, I've heard of numerous failures to start and failure to climb,
> but not uncontained blade failures or engine departing AC...
>

Page 23 on

http://www.doc.glidingaustralia.org/index.php?option=com_docman&view=download&alias=2342-occurrences-2018&category_slug=occurrence-summaries&Itemid=101

this is probably the same incident I remembered, but that version had
the farmer making two trips to deliver spare parts.

Dave said:
> Please email to me offline.

And what is your email?

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 9:07:15 PM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
> http://www.doc.glidingaustralia.org/index.php?option=com_docman&view=download&alias=2342-occurrences-2018&category_slug=occurrence-summaries&Itemid=101

For those who haven't seen these consolidated incident summaries, GFA does an really excellent job. I always read the summaries in S&G, but hadn't seen these before:
http://www.doc.glidingaustralia.org/index.php?option=com_docman&view=tree&Itemid=101&slug=occurrence-summaries